What's behind DSL?

Tja - so gut englisch sprech ich nicht (leider)(kein bock). Zum Thema: Man muss sich ja nicht mit T-Online einwählen, da gibts dieses ..PoET/Engel-Treiber, und diese Sicherheitslöcher, wie ich das verstanden hab ist dann mit nem Update von Webwasher+Co. für DSL wohl auch erledigt. Für die Masse, denen Sicherheit egal ist und ihre Passwörter auf der Festplatte haben (sorry:)haben eh nichts anderes "verdient".
Also: Es gibt immer Schlupflöcher auch für die andere Seite, also die Anwender, manchmal sogar mehr (Linefire).

Hi JJ,

well, I am sure that you also know that as soon as your computer is connected to the Internet, your machine will be vulnerable/accessable. It doesn't matter whether you have DSL or not.

The next question is also, who the heck is interested to break into my machine? What is so interesting on my harddrive that someone wants to get? Some data about my banking stuff and then maybe get some dollars (sorry deutsche Marks) from my account? Well I think that the time spent and finally getting the few amount of money from my bank is surely not worth while I guess. I think that there thousands of other sites of higher interest, don't you think?

Of course the Deutsche Telekom (DT) is pushing DSL (as they did several years ago with ISDN). The purpose is pretty obvious, to "tie" their customers as long and as many as possible to their company. But who cares? As long as they provide a good performance, affordable prices, stability, then it's okay I guess. I don't think that you sell your soul to DT in case you want DSL. In the US there also DSL providers, but I have no idea about their conditions, the last time I have heard in the radio (AFN) around 300000 people I think. That is surely not many compared to the rest of the population. But don't you think that there are quite some good advantages to DSL?
I think it's fair from the DT and I sure am not working for them nor do I love them. But I think one always need to be fair.
Time will show to what "price" one paid DSL (but at this moment it's the "cheapest")

Thanks for your reply.....I hope this helps....



Reply to BS - some of your text is mixed in here....




Hi JJ,

well, I am sure that you also know that as soon as your computer is connected to the Internet, your machine will be vulnerable/accessible.

Of course I know that………do you know that an internet connection that is “always on” (DSL) is more vulnerable then an internet connection that “isn’t always on” (ISDN – Analog)? or perhaps T-Online (your DSL provider)forgot to mention that part?



The next question is also, who the heck is interested to break into my machine?

“Who” indeed……. Bet you wish you knew their name if they did……


What is so interesting on my hard drive that someone wants to get? Some data about my banking stuff and then maybe get some dollars (sorry deutsche Marks) from my account?

If you don’t find your banking data interesting….(i.e. credit card numbers), I am sure somebody else does.



Well I think that the time spent and finally getting the few
amount of money from my bank is surely not worth while I guess. I think that there thousands of other sites of higher interest, don't you think?

Glad you feel so calm about it. I am sure people with more money in their bank or more business interests on their hard drives don’t feel as comfortable about it. Or at least they shouldn’t if they were aware of what the security issues related to DSL are.



Of course the Deutsche Telekom (DT) is pushing DSL (as they did several years ago with ISDN). The purpose is pretty obvious, to 'tie' their customers as long and as many as possible to their company. But who cares?

Do you think there might be a less obvious purpose? I am not saying…..just asking you to examine that question.


As long as they provide a good performance, affordable prices, stability, then it's okay I guess. I don't think that you sell your soul to DT in case you want DSL.

Why you defend a monopoly that makes the rules for themselves instead of for the customer or based on competition (which benefits the customer) is beyond me….(don’t say they aren’t….everyone that tries to compete with them goes out of business – the law needs to step into this situation). Any company that operates under these rules owns your soul and your bank account.


In the US there also DSL providers, but I have no idea about their conditions, the last time I have heard in the radio (AFN) around 300000 people I think. That is surely not many compared to the rest of the population.

Somebody had to try it out……I’m here to tell you about it. (I never got it BTW…but I have friends who did).


But don't you think that there are quite some good advantages to DSL?

No…..the security risks outweigh the speed benefit.

I think it's fair from the DT and I sure am not working for them nor do I love them. But I think one always need to be fair.

You sure you don’t work for them? (just kidding….it’s a joke)

Time will show to what 'price' one paid DSL (but at this moment it's the 'cheapest')

Ahhh, the old saying “you get what you paid for”…..but in T-Online (DT’s) case I think it’s “you pay and pay and pay”


The net is a tricky place…..many things that go on behind the scenes that a “new person” to the net will not be aware of for quite awhile (until they spend a lot of time reading and researching what is going on). Most people that do this are interested in doing business on the net (like myself)and are / or have lived in a country where internet access is cheap or free.

T-Online won’t even give you the chance to spend that time to do the research that you need to do to be “in the know” or “ahead of the game”. Being charged “by the minute” doesn’t afford one this luxury.

This is the effects of the business model that T-Online (DT) has on the German people and the German economy as a whole.

Therefore I must assume that T-Online’s business practices have more to do with their financial gain then it does with the benefit of their customers.

Therefore I must also question “why the push for cheap DSL?”

Based on what I have learned about DSL in the past and what I know about “sneaking a peak” at peoples hard drives and what T-Online’s approach to business is……I can begin to make some conclusions.

Trouble is…..I can’t seem to make any good conclusions out of it.

The fact is that “minute by minute” or “call by call” connections put Germany in the back seat when it comes to the internet. Countries with regular cheap access will be ahead of the game.

DSL “always on” for, lets say an internet business (someone who needs to be on-line more often)leaves someone with “more important things” on their hard drive open to some one else “sneaking a peak” at what they are doing…..and susceptible to attack (think about it “hired hacker I-business assassins” – sound far fetched…..or does it?) Not too long ago the “internet” sounded like a far fetched idea. (must be us creative people…….or, ahem, Al Gore – another joke (remember he said he invented the internet? Lol……BTW – I’m not a Bush supporter…)




Best wishes…..

JJ

Here are a couple of links on DSL security:

http://istpub.berkeley.edu:4201/bcc/Apr_May2000/sec.dsl.html

http://www.computeruser.com/magazine/national/1802/covr1802.html



(raise your voices people! Stop monopolies from making / controlling your decisions)

If you want to learn something good from America…..learn about the break up of Ma Bell (ATT) – America’s telephone monopoly………

ooops......meant to stick this in there.....

I wish I could write as quickly in German……that’s a problem (not fast enough yet). But I am sure some of you will get the message and pass it on.


Fricken T-Online has me clicking on and off now.....lol.....sucks

JJ

I do understand what you mean with DT/T-online. Of course it's still pretty expensive to be in the internet, here in Germany. Compared to the USA, only a certain part of the population can "afford" this.

Hey, Walmart is alreay trying to take over here too! I do know that company too (and surely also their policy!) I guess that you also compare DT/T-online with them too. That means offering "good prices", kicking out "weaker" competitors and then setting up a monopoly (and then set the price). I would say that in that case Philip Moris is far ahead with this an surely world wide. Compared to them DT is nothing. Just try to find out what this trust owns! (Practically everything you eat is coming from them <G>)

Of course I know about the risks of being "constantly" on the internet. I think that pretty much everyone who does this (what they call over here as power user) is pretty much aware of what kind of risk they do. I guess that if someone really wants to break into your system, that person will find its way! The only safe way from keeping people breaking in is simply keep your PC/system away from any kind of net!

If someone thinks one can stay in the internet without leaving a trace, my goodness, that person is surely a bit short minded! Sure one can make it harder, but there is always a way to track you down.

As I said, I think that if someone spends his/her time to somehow break into someone's machine without big money behind it, well, I say that person needs a life, don't you think? Who wants to steal a few bucks when the big bucks are somewhere else? The guys who stole the little bucks are bing caught pretty fast (since they have to get a lot of little bucks) The more these persons are active, the more traces the leave. So a simple question of profit/risk I say (or better say how greedy one is)

Someone who is concerned about security, company policy etc. can not be a Bush fan <G>


Ohh well, I agree , one gets what one pays for! Though at this moment DT is offering the best deal I think and I am more than sure that most customers over here are not good friends/fans of DT.

But thanks a lot for the link(s)! I surely will have a look there too.

BTW, I think that MS is much more powerful/bigger than DT <G>

So if Walmart, Philip Morris and Microsoft all suck…..how does that make T-Online better? Your logic is a bit off…..

There are differences though: DT was a private / socialist venture back when Germany built or re-built (after WW2) it’s telephone system. Government and private enterprise is the worst mix you can have…..Have a look at Russia today.

Walmart developed a niche based on what people wanted (to go to one store that has everything) ……they didn’t get together with the government on that.

Philip Morris is just an old company that is very smart and has done well by diversifying it’s capital.

Microsoft fulfills a niche as well: the need for compatible computer systems. They started in Bill Gates’ garage…..fooling around with early computers. I can respect that. They tried to use some monopoly tactics at one point…..they had to go to court for it.

The point is though that all these companies have competitors – MS has Apple, Walmart has K-Mart, ATT has Sprint and many other companies, that give the consumer a choice……and thus keeps the pricing in check.

DT has no one like this…..no one that comes close to what they do and that is the problem.

The companies that they lease bandwidth too have to charge more to make a profit.
What kind of competition is that?

Every other company I read about on this site has some ridiculous pricing system that at a glance looks cheaper……but in the fine print it isn’t. And they want you to sign up for a year or two year contract.

Why is this? Because DT forces them to do this.

Because of DT’s history of government ties, the government will not step in and will play along with the appearance that DT isn’t a monopoly any more.

So who can step in? People like you and I.

(although your duck and groove logic / tactics (MS – Walmart – PM) are leading me to believe you have a connection with DT).

If people don’t raise their voice…..what is going to change?

Every bodies bank account, that’s for sure.

The way I look at it – if the infrastructure is there (i.e. telephone lines) and the standard internet offer in America is flat-rate no matter what type of connection you choose. Then there is no reason why people should pay all this extra garbage.

The beauty of the net is that it offers an equal playing field for those seeking to sell, buy or advertise…..(true competitive markets). Beyond information….that’s what it offers.

T-Online takes this away from German people. And the way I see it is because they don’t like competition. So when will we see them in court like Microsoft? (good question, eh?)

Anyway…..we are way off of DSL here…..but you brought it up so…….(lol)

Glad I could express some more of my views…….and maybe have a few people listen.


JJ

Hi Jupiter,

well, there is also one thing you forget. There are business areas that can not be "handled" by "usual" people. Well, what do I mean with this? Let me try, I don't think that some people can get together and say let's set up a power plant or build a train system or as in most contries (and not just in Germany) set up a phone system or street system. There are certain things that is also in public interest and should actually be handled by the state. (look what is going on in California with the power plant! It's in the private sector and see what they are doing to make more money. If you don't pay more, we simply switch of the electricity! This is the other side people usually forget)

In economy, monopolies are surely not good, it makes those companies very powerful and pretty can charge what ever they want. Phone/street/mail/traffic and other things that might be good (or let's say of high interest) for lots of people should also be determined by or influenced by lots of people. That's why a state should "look over" them I guess. I think if it's in a private sector, this company can charge what ever they want and they will do this! The big disadvantage of a "state owned" company is surely also that it's not run effectly. People have no incentive to do their best, why should they, right? Competition is in such case the key word to get things run better and surely of higher quality.

If you check Walmart, you will see that they are pretty nasty. You mention K-Mart as a competitor, hmm, I don't think that they are strong enough. I have never seen K-Mart in Europe and soon it also will be owned by Walmart. This company pretty much tries to push every competitor out of the business and they do! Walmart is also running stores in UK, but so far I have never seen a K-Mart over here.

Well, I surely am not working for DT (nor will I ), but I think that they are doing better now compared to several years ago! ( As I said I think that most phone companies in the world started first to be a state "owned" company. ( BTW, universities over here in Germany are also owned by the state and are not private as in the USA. Well of course the private universities are of higher quality, usually. But who can afford it? Only the rich people, don't you think? Of course there are ways to get "help" paying this, but to what price? Signing up in the army I guess is the usual way)

I am glad that over here the phone market is now "open" for competition and yes, DT surely has a jump start compared to the other companies and they will do anything to try to keep this in their hands! At least the Regulierungsbehörde is trying to keep an eye on them and it's good this way!

The competition surely made things cheaper ( and it's good this way!) and it's pretty obvious that DT is pushing people trying to keep them tied to them! This DSL is surely another "weapon" they have. I am tied to DT/T-Online for one year and I sure am not happy about that. Things are still too expensive over here and it will take some time to make things cheaper, unfortunately. But I don't think that signing up to DSL also means that I "sold my soul". Hey, you can buy some shares from them and also own part of DT <G>!

You are good…..and I am enjoying this debate now.

(hmmm, but my time…sad, too bad we can’t have some beers on the weekend and talk about it)


Every situation is “unique”, and can not easily be compared.

First of all I want to emphasize the difference between companies that are managed properly and those that aren’t. Not all of these companies are American either. Take “IKEA” or “Bertelsman / BMG” for example. These companies do well by having proper management and good decision making. If companies like Wallmart don’t, you have the option to not buy from them.

With DT we don’t have this option, to not buy from them (in reality, because even the smaller ISP has to lease their bandwidth from them). DT is the only “true” player in this game.

Interesting that you bring up the California energy crisis (a “unique” situation). Pacific Gas and Electricity is another company that has no competition. Yet, to please their customers (many of which are very powerful in California) they keep their energy prices down. The problem with them has been mismanagement as well (like DT).

The population and energy use increase in California due to the .com industry (and some other circumstances – mainly immigration from Asia and Mexico / South America) has brought a major increase in usage. PG&E failed in planning for this and relied on what they had always used….fossil fuels. (note that Los Angeles got smart and created their own energy company awhile back)

The government is stepping in now because it is a “crisis” situation and because PG&E is a “public utility”. They will probably help fund some alternate sources of energy (nuclear, hydro electric – that is if the environmental groups let them). Dot com’s are moving out….many of them defeated in the internet “gold rush”. The situation is straightening itself out….in a natural way.

Nobody is being blackmailed to pay more money to PG&E…although these powerful “business types” in California can assume some of the blame. (it’s a very long story – but it all is working in a “natural” way – i.e. physics - like a pendulum that swings back and forth)

I am wondering if DT will straighten itself out or is capable of straightening itself out in a "natural way".

The point is PG&E didn’t plan correctly…..and it’s quite possible that they couldn’t because of sudden influx and the strength of environmental groups, and powerful companies in California. The government works as a “bandage” factor in this situation.

Let’s get back to T-Online (DT). In my eyes this is a company that is full of mismanagement and self serving tactics.

I will go through each reason why I am upset with T-Online (DT):

Even though the ISP market is “open” now here in Germany (and phones for that matter). DT is bullying it’s way through eliminating competition. In a short time, it won’t matter whether or not the market is “officially” open or not. There will be no other competition.

(big deal…..so you know how to bully your way to the top DT…..not that you didn’t start at the top to begin with….what a challenge…..we’re all really proud of you…)

I use Bewerg for electricity, I use the DB for transportation. I don’t have a problem paying the price they ask. I feel that they are fair in what they ask.

Have you added up what T-Online wants for using the internet? If I were to stay on-line 24 / 7 (not that I would) at 2,9 pf a minute minus the 90 hours a month that I am allowed under the new “surprise” deal they “told” me they were switching me too without asking me, it would cost over 1,800 DM a month.

For a 100 DM a month I can ride the trains and busses in my city 24/7 for an entire month. And for some reason I think that riding the train and buses in my city uses a lot more energy and manpower then it does for me to surf the internet.

Same with electricity…..I can have something turned on in my apartment 24/7 and still pay 40-80 DM a month.

How does 1800 DM a month even get figured into this picture?

My assumption is that there are a lot of people at “the top” of this company that are making a lot of money…..some money changing hands with people “in the right places”….and a lot of other things that help round this figure out.

On top of this T-Online posted / claimed the fact that they actually lost money last year……and who did they blame? That’s right…..the customer.

I don’t think they want to take a look at themselves…..it may be too embarrassing.

If DB and Bewerg aren’t posting losses and blaming the customer….how can DT do this when they charge close to 2000 % more?

Then there is the fact that I signed up for ISDN flat rate….bought a ISDN modem…..spent the time to install it (which is / isn’t easy – problems always pop up), and then was informed a month and half later that ISDN flat-rate would no longer exist.

I again was told that customers were to blame for “leaving their connections on all the time and that T-Online was going broke because of it. I looked at my lamps and my stereo and thought to myself “what?”.

Then I was told I could have DSL flat rate (great – another devise / money and installation and more time). I thought to myself……if T-Online is going broke because customers are staying on line too much, then why are they offering me another flat-rate? (with different technology I might add)……and the killer here is – for less money per month. Going broke my ass…..

This company is full of lies and manipulation……

Did they send me a letter asking me to use the net less? That because of financial reasons they might have to raise or change the rates if I didn’t? Did they offer to keep my ISDN flat rate going at least until DSL was in my neighborhood? No……..

Then there was my “tech – support” situation……

First off, I refuse to use their software as a browser, which they try to force down your throat (not as bad as AOL……but). I refuse to be some watched AOL gadut on the net, and the less BS advertising I have the better (I’m happy with MS / IE in this respect).

I had everything figured out and working on my own except my e-mail wasn’t downloading. I called T-Onlines tech support…..they didn’t have a clue how to help me (I talked to 3 different tech persons). They recommended I use their software…..or call MS tech support. But they were completely confused.

I figured it out on my own, but it took alot of time and “ time is money”.

(and then of course the news that if I want flat rate again I have to install a new system now - DSL…..boy do I look forward to this.)

What did this tell me? Either T-Online is purposely not teaching certain things to their tech-support people, or they are putting minimal money into training their tech people and their tech system.

You know…..I enjoy going to the DT – T-Online store. The people are nice….they treat me well.

But everything else since that moment has been hell.

Do I have any choices in this? Yes and no….if I want to pay more and be stuck under a 1 –2 year contract agreement with a company that leases bandwidth from DT (or if I want to be an AOL gadut and be forced to use their software which disables some of my other software and forces me into “their advertising world”).

So actually I don’t have a choice.

Do I want to use DSL? No…..I find the security problems outweigh the speed benefits.

Am I happy with T-Online DT? Can you guess at my answer?

Do I think things will get better? No…..not unless people speak up about it……and if they do, they better do it loudly and soon.

Would I buy DT stock? No…..the things I experience as a customer alone, without reading any of their stock reports (only some news) tells me that they are full of mismanagement.

I would be much happier to see them in court facing anti-trust charges. And that’s where I predict they will end up sooner or later.

Thanks for listening and putting up with my English……

Best wishes,

JJ

hmmm, er um, I meant discussion...not really a debate anymore I think....